Gifted Children in Schools (Mehtab Hashmi Culling - NAGC)

Thanks for the link to NAGC and its work. I was intersted in the work you are doing with parents regarding "neglected voices". Do you think parents are really neglected? Are their views not taken into account? Also if this is the case is it true for all parents?


What do you think Mehtab?

Hi Ian

In answer to your questions:
a)Do you think parents are really neglected?
I think it is accurate to say that some parents do feel neglected. The key findings on communication in ‘Neglected Voices’ include:
•1 in 9 parents felt they couldn’t talk to the school at any time
•1 in 13 teachers felt they couldn’t talk to parents at any time

b)Are their views not taken into account?
Parents don’t always feel their views are taken into account. Some of this is because parents don’t feel able to voice their opinions to teachers. Other parents have expressed voicing their opinion and raising issues and not feeling heard, saying their views have not been taken into account. Other times we receive calls when the parent tells us they have expressed a view and the school has taken very positive action as a result of this.

c)Also if this is the case is it true for all parents?
This is certainly not true for all parents. In addition to my last comment in b) above, we hear from many schools and parents of the very good practices that are going on in engaging positively with parents. We are currently collecting examples of good practice for the school member’s area of our website. We would welcome such examples from schools.

I think I do a good job of keeping parents informed about the G&T Programme through letters, the website and the school newsletter, but I get no contribution from parents about their opinions of their own children. What are the best ways you have found to help parents be actively involved in the identification of and provision for G&T students?

Hi Peter

It is good to hear of the work you are doing. Unfortunately parental disengagement is a very common problem identified by schools, particularly at secondary level. You could try sending out questionnaires to parents asking them for their views on the talents of their child. It may be that the parents will engage with this more if the children bring home a questionnaire as a piece of homework and ask the parents themselves.

Also a different idea to bring the parents in may work e.g. a coffee morning where you have informal discussions over refreshments and obtain the parent’s views in that way.

If you click on the link above for ‘Neglected Voices’, the Summary of Main Recommendations (on pages 8 and 9 of this document) gives some good ideas for positively engaging with parents. These recommendations have been formulated following research via questionnaires to parents, class teachers, G&T co-ordinators and head teachers, as well as some in depth case-studies that were carried out with schools and local authorities.

I suggest you keep up with your efforts and try not to become disheartened as there are many others in the same boat. Good luck.

Mehtab

I agree here and maybe something that a lively and pro-active PTA can be dealing with and actioning?

I read from some newspapers (a couple of months ago) that the previous government was pulling the plug on the financing gifted programmes or NAGC. Will this be reversed under the current administration or are schools required to fund their own gifted programmes?

Will groups like NAGC and London gifted continue to operate?

John B Amoah

Ho John

What is "London Gifted". I have not heard of them before?

Yes that a good question. Is the "Gifted Initiative" under threat from cuts? Does NAGC have any influence?

Hi Ian

Comments on funding are in the response above.

Regarding influence, NAGC does lobby for the cause of G&T and we have always been on the G&T Steering Group at the DfE. There is a meeting on the 25th June’10 at St. Mary’s College to talk about how all the organisations working in the G&T field can work together for the benefit of children everywhere.

We are an independent charity and have been in existence for 43 years; and have a rich history of working to lobby for the G&T cause. We were one of the four organisations asked to give evidence at the recent Select Committee on the future of G&T.

We also work at a local level e.g. we help support the G&T co-ordinators in the learning community across Bedfordshire.

Hi John

By London Gifted I am assuming you mean London G&T. They are trying to continue by self financing. This is a similar case for the London Excellence Hubs.
The contact for London G&T is: Ian Warwick info@londongt.org

Also another useful contact in the London area is Regional Partnerships: Debbie Newman debbie_newman@btinternet.com

Regarding funding for schools, everything is in a state of flux at the moment and we know nothing more than is in the press. We do have a meeting at the start of July and may know more after that.

Mehtab

Mehtab,

I am glad to see the London Excellence Hubs are going to be trying to self-finance, do you know anything about the hubs outside of London. We have recently come across the work do by the South East Excellence Hub based at Canterbury, and it would be a shame if they were shut down after we have only just managed to engage with them!

Pete

Hi Pete

There are other Excellence Hubs. Many of them are closing at the end of this term or have closed already, but others are continuing where they can self finance. There are Regional Partnerships in 9 regions, which are still continuing. The regions are:
North West, North East, West Midlands, East Midlands, East of England, South West, South East, Yorkshire & Humberside and London.
The contact information for the London Excellence Hub is: Hang Ho email london-excellence@qmul.ac.uk tel 0207 882 8887.
We do not have contacts that we can give out for the others, but you can find them individually on the internet.

Mehtab

Thanks for the reply

Regarding parents awareness that their child is on the Gifted and Talented Register ,in my experience we have been reluctant to publish an official register due to lack of teacher confidence in identifying children as 'real' G+T and the fact that some children do not consistently perform at a higher level throughout their school career and what we may consider as G+T at our school due to achieving in the above average bands of assessment may be quiet normal for other schools that do not have EAL challenges .Does this therefore mean that we have a lower percentage of G+T children or simply that their skills are masked by language difficulty ?

Once identified what provision can realsitically be made that truely meets the needs of this child that is not only effective but also consistent ? In my opinion it is simply not adequate or effective to meet the needs of G+T children through extension,questioning and additional opportunities to develop skills.

With increased demands on funding we have had to concentrate funding to SEN /EAL children . Working in a school with a high proportion of SEN and EAL children tends to focus provision on enabling these children to achieve an 'average' standard.

It is incredibly difficult to source additional G+T workshops either within school time or at weekends .It is also difficult to source academic resources that are consistently challenging or can be delivered within class contexts .Most resources I have seen tend to be reference books with ideas rather than solid activities .

I have referenced identification materials and use these but would appreciate any suggestions on practical resources that can be used to make learning enjoyable and effective for our G+T students

The official line was (and maybe still is) that a certain percentage (I am not sure whether it is 5%, 10% or 2% as I have heard of all three being used) of the top of your cohort should be G&T registered. This would seem to proclude the idea of you having a lower percentage of G&T students.

With regards provision, all the research (including NAGC's own) points to the idea that in class provision is the key. The newest materials on the National Strategy areas are all about "High Challenge for all". I assume if you are getting SEN and EAL students to perform better than expected you must be providing them with a high challenge. It is this attitude that your staff must take to the education of more able pupils as well. Whilst this can be difficult to do without specific provision for them, it is possible to do it by being flexible about where more able student enter tasks and how what they are expected to deliver from a particular task can be different. I have a reasonable number of techniques that teachers can employ that require little in the way of extra resource production, but more care and attention in using what you have. If you would like to pass on your contact details I will happily share them with you.

Are you primary or secondary Christina?

Mehtab

The recommendation is for each school to have a percentage of their highest performers in each cohort, those working at above the year average. Most schools are taking this to be the top 5 to 10% in each year, although the guidelines are not clear cut. The words ‘National Average’ have been mentioned, but it is generally interpreted that the idea behind this was equal opportunities in G&T for affluent middle class well performing schools and schools with children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Obviously this does mean that the children on the G&T register in different schools could well be at different levels of ability, so you cannot compare like for like in all schools. We find that the provision for G&T varies greatly from school to school depending on resources and staffing skills and also on the attitude and beliefs of SLT. There are some primary school teachers who have said they avoid putting children onto the G&T register because they then don’t know what to do with them.

You may not be able to ideally meet the individual learning needs of every child in your class. However, extension, questioning and additional opportunities to developing skills go a very long way towards meeting their needs. I think you are doing a very good job with these. When you ‘Ask a Different Question’ you are making a very valuable intervention in developing their critical thinking skills. Also this takes very little teacher time.
 
EAL challenges can mean both of the things you have mentioned, which is why Maths is often used as a good indicator of masked ability. However, this does pose a problem if the child is not very good numerically but is gifted in other areas, or conversely they may be just gifted in Maths.

Mehtab

Original Question by Nieves

Hotseat topics
Posted by nieves vara gonzalez at Jun 09, 2010 09:11 PM
Hi everyone. It's great having Mehtab on the hotseat. I have found the NAGC most helpful in my research. I have looked at the topics that Methab plans to cover during the next two weeks and I wonder what other people think about those questions. This is what I think:

I feel that the main issues that gifted children face in our schools are:

1) Lack of training of the teachers who fail to understand the social, emotional and learning needs of gifted children.
2) Boredom of gifted children in the classroom as a result of the lack of challenge which often manifests itself in misbehaviour or "day dreaming" as forms of escapism.
3) Society as a whole believes that gifted children are the lucky ones who will do well at school without special provision or opportunities. Most teachers and parents think that it is far more important to concetrate on the children who are struggling to access the curriculum. This means that little resources, if any, are spent on provision for the gifted. .
4) Ethnic minority students and economically disadvantaged children are not being identified as gifted and they are underachieving at school.

Why is it important to tackle these?
Because gifted children DO have special needs. They are just different type of needs.
Because EVERY child has the right and deserves to receive an education which is appropriate to their needs and which develops their potential to the full but also because, not to do so, constitutes a waste to mankind. After all, these children have the potential to become the brightest doctors, the brilliant inventors or the researcher who may discover a cure against a crippling disease.
Because when teachers plan their lessons for the whole class if they also have in mind the needs of the gifted children it raises the general standards of teaching in the classroom.

What are the responses in schools?
I think it varies from school to school. My research project is about finding out the educational provison in Primary Schools for gifted children. I want to identify what are the key issues that make a primary school a nurturing school for the gifted. If anyone can recommend me a primary school that challenges and caters well for the educational needs of gifted children I would very much appreciate it so that I can contact them and inflict my surveys upon them.I am finding it hard to get a lot of co-operation!! I live in Essex.
What is likely to happen with the new government in the UK?
I wonder whether each school will receive a general budget to provide for the "invidual needs" of students and it will be up to the school to split the budget amongst the chidren they think that need it most.
If that is the case I imagine that gifted children would lose hands down over the ones who have learning difficulties. Also, with all the spending cuts at the moment the provision for the gifted might end up at the bottom of the list of priorities?

I would love to hear from anyone who knows what is going to happen with the G&T scheme from now on. I have looked everywhere on the internet without much success. Any ideas?

Nieves Vara-Gonzalez

Ian's answer :

Hotseat topics
Posted by Ian at Jun 10, 2010 08:26 AM
Good points Nieves

"fail to understand the social, emotional and learning needs"

Do not understand (SEAL)" may be an opinion warrnted by experience and in need of research or referencing evidnce

"Fail to" implies that they have tried but not succeeded. Is it not the case that something else operates here- that they do not evebn try. ?

Why that may be so might be explianed by a range of reasons, for example:
1. It's not percieved as (relativley) important
2. Their role has other pressures for example to be subject specialists
3. Their image of learning is that it is the delivery of knowledge into vessels where SEAL is not relevant.

ie their are some deliberate counter pressures in the system

 I have a lot of connections in primary schools in Cambridge City and Cambridgeshire who I'm sure would be able to help you with your questions. I hope! Email me and I'll put you in touch with them.
 Extending opportunities for gifted children is not something that all schools do well, often resulting in disaffected behaviour. Whilst struggling to provide access to the curriculum for pupils who find mainstream pace and content challenging the needs of those pupils who have found the work not sufficiently challenging may be overlooked. Teachers have been expected to focus on their teaching, their lesson plans and targets and in the midst of all these good intentions it is difficult to really see what children are learning or dare to trust pupils sufficiently to take responsibility for developing their own learning.
 There are always going to be tensions around providing the appropriate learning challenges for the most able children, between the needs of the individual and the group. However trying to resolve these dilemmas constitutes the continuing excitement of what it is to teach.
Often advice that I give around meeting the needs of pupils with high functioning autism is about setting suitable learning challenges based in individual investigations and the standard of work achieved can be quite outstanding with the added bonus of a reduction in unacceptable behaviours.
Ruth Green

Hi Ruth
Do you know of any primary school which holds the NACE Challenge Award and which may be willing to co-operate with my research?

Thanks,

Nieves

Hi Nieves, Its taken me a while to reply as none of the state schools seem to have this award but I met someone yesterday who works at Kings School Ely ( a private school) and they have the award.
I have a contact there.
On holiday now for a while.
All best,
Ruth

Duncan's Answer to Nieves questions.

3) Society as a whole believes that gifted children are the lucky ones who will do well at school without special provision or opportunities. Most teachers and parents think that it is far more important to concetrate on the children who are struggling to access the curriculum. This means that little resources, if any, are spent on provision for the gifted.

Answer:
I think there are two issues here. 1) Funding - school budgets are very tight. As a G+T co-ordinator it upsets me that G+T is not always given priority of money. Therefore it is left to individual sublect leaders to ensure that G+T resources are available for their subject. However, with very little money subject leaders are forced to buy essentials that cater for ther majority. It is sad that it comes to money and G+T should be catered for but it is difficult when there is no money. I have had many conversations with my subject leaders but at times it is difficult to get them to see the need when, in some peoples eyes, it only benefits the minority. I recieve no budget for general G+T things.
2) Targets - As primary school we are judged on many things. One of these things are our end of Key Stage 2 results. We are judged on the number of level 4's and above we get. Anything above a level 4 is not really counted separatly, therefore more time is going to be spent boosting the lowers and mid attainers to ensure they reach the bench mark. If we got 5% level 6 but only 30% level 4 and above we would be deemed as not providing a good education and therefore at times priority is given to boost. I agree with you though when you suggest that if we catered for G+T generally in lesson planning we would be raising general standards but at times needs must. However, this is where good links with secondary schools and a well worked cluster comes in very handy as this is where you can signpost children to for specialist days and events.


4) Ethnic minority students and economically disadvantaged children are not being identified as gifted and they are underachieving at school.

As a general rule we will also put 'undersachievers' on the G+T register if it is seen that they have the potential but for whatever reason they are not 'getting the grades' as it were.

WHat are they key issues facing schools?
1) funding
2) understanding of G+T by staff
3) lack of general acceptance of G+T
4) resources (linked to funding)


Duncan

I do believe that there was a report done two years ago about that topic and that the neglect of parental voice or interaction causes anxiety to parents. I was found that Students performed better in school when parents we more involved in school activities and programmes; when parents had a voice in the school. Many independent schools isolate parents from their childrens education.

Why Engage Parents?

1. Pupils with engaged parents are more likely to:
•Achieve higher grades and test scores and enrol in higher education
•Have increased motivation & higher self esteem
•Attend school regularly
•Have better social skills, show improved behaviour
•Adapt well to school

Henderson & Mapp 2002 A New Wave of Evidence: The Impact of School, Family and Community Connections on Student Achievement

2. Schools benefit from
•Improved teacher confidence and morale
•Higher pupil achievement in all ages
•Higher ratings of teachers by parents
•More support from families
•Better reputation in the community

3. Parents express a genuine and deep-seated desire to help their children succeed in school regardless of differences in socio-economic status, race, ethnicity and cultural background

Henderson and Mapp 2002 ibid

4. Parent engagement leads to feelings of participation and ownership resulting in increased support for schools

Davies 1988 Low Income Parents & Schools

5. Family participation in education is twice as predictive of a pupil’s academic success as family socio-economic status and where engagement programmes are intensive it can be ten times more predictive

Henderson & Berla 1996 A New Generation of Evidence: The Family is critical to Student Achievement

6. Because you can become a Gold School!
NAGC Gold Schools Membership is awarded to schools for excelling with parents

“Engaging and working with parents is one
of the most vital parts of providing children
with an excellent education”

 From: www.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/parentinvolvement

Thanks for those resources, Mehtab. Has anyone else got some useful resources for Gifted Education?

Hi Nieves

I have a Primary School contact for you. Katie Epps of Winslow CE Combined School.
This is one of our Gold Schools, they have done the NACE Challenge; and Katie is happy to help. He email is kbownes@bucksgfl.org.uk

Mehtab

Mehtab

Thank you so much! I will contact Katie.

Nieves

Dear Mehtab,

1) Late May 2010 I had a discussion with Prof. Deborah Eyre in Dubai. From what I concluded is that there is not really a difference in approaching learners who are identified as G&T. The IB (International Baccalaureate) curriculum is based on an inquiry approach of teaching. G&T differentiation; ‘breadth’ (offer more), ‘depth’ (deeper) and ‘pace’ (faster) is what should be done with every IB learner. What is the difference?

The ‘golden rules’: risk taking, a community of learners, empowered learners, higher order thinking, questioning-explaining-challenging are IB concepts. What is the difference?

2) What is the difference between ‘gifted’ and ‘talented’? And how could you explain the use of these terms in relation to Gardner’s multiple intelligence theory?

3) Some G&T learners are not identified. How do I find out about them?

I coordinate the IB SEN program Nursery – Grade 12, in a private international school in Dubai - UAE.

Greetz,

Willem van der Sluis
Doha - Qatar

Dear Mehtab,

1) Late May 2010 I had a discussion with Prof. Deborah Eyre in Dubai. From what I concluded is that there is not really a difference in approaching learners who are identified as G&T. The IB (International Baccalaureate) curriculum is based on an inquiry approach of teaching. G&T differentiation; ‘breadth’ (offer more), ‘depth’ (deeper) and ‘pace’ (faster) is what should be done with every IB learner. What is the difference?

The ‘golden rules’: risk taking, a community of learners, empowered learners, higher order thinking, questioning-explaining-challenging are IB concepts. What is the difference?

2) What is the difference between ‘gifted’ and ‘talented’? And how could you explain the use of these terms in relation to Gardner’s multiple intelligence theory?

3) Some G&T learners are not identified. How do I find out about them?

I coordinate the IB SEN program Nursery – Grade 12, in a private international school in Dubai - UAE.

Greetz,

Willem van der Sluis
Doha - Qatar